The Identities of Northern England- Transcript
This webinar, as you probably know, is to explore the nature of England's northern identities, to understand what they are and how they may be changing, but also because we're interested in politics and identity. To understand the political significance of northern identities. In recent years we have seen. The rise of some very prominent, directly elected mayors, some of whom not, all of whom but some of whom appeal to ideas of parts of the north or of Northerners we've had governments having initiatives like the Northern powerhouse. All the political parties are are performing a promising devolution in one form or another. And what we? Want to try and get to this afternoon is some understanding. Of the role that. England's northern identities might play in the future governance of England and of the North of England in particular. To what extent can they be mobilised politically to support change? To what extent do northern. Entities help decide how to design devolved institutions, and we should always remember that this is against a tradition of doing things very differently. In England, the dominant approach in the past has been a technocratic one, looking at functional market areas, city regions, the economics of agglomeration. An approach that may sometimes map onto historic identities by coincidence, but. That often quite different to where actually the people feel and live themselves. They've got a great panel tonight to talk about this and I'll introduce them quickly now and then. In turn, we've. Got Brian Groom, journalist, commentator, author of the bestselling Northerners. Ryan Swift, just completing his PhD on the politics of Northerners at Leeds University and a research fellow for I PR North and very much at the last minute because Amrin Qureshi had to. To drop out, unfortunately, Professor Natasha Valles from Teesside University Natasha seems to be having significant IT problems at the moment, but I hope she'll join us in due course, but but can I go first to to to Brian Groom? Who's going to set the scene? And talk a bit about the nature of northern identities. Brian over to you.Thanks very much John. Hello to everybody and thanks very much for inviting me to to this event. One point I should probably begin by making is that in my in my book, I don't try to define northern identity, not because I don't think that's possible, but because I think it's a complex and multilayered thing. In the title of this seminar, we talk about the identities of northern England. For example, I would consider myself a Stretford, Ian Mancunian Lancastrian, and a northerner. In my case, I feel the broader northern identity quite strongly, but not everyone does. It can depend on people's family and social Connexions, their work patterns, ethnicity and religion, and a whole host of factors. I would say there are three areas of the north where a sub regional or a county identity is felt especially strongly. In the northeast, where many people consider it to be the only true north and that Lancashire and Yorkshire are in the Midlands in Liverpool, an internationally connected seaport where some people consider themselves Scouse, not English. And in Yorkshire, which consists as itself, God's only count God's own county. And often people emphasise their northern Ness when they think of it in relation to the South. Some degree of northern consciousness has existed from the earliest times. Beard in the 8th century referred 9 times in his ecclesiastical history of the brick English people to the Humber, as the boundary between North and South. But haziness about where the north begins and ends is probably 1 factor as to why we don't have a northern independence movement on the scale of Scotland or Wales. Northern England, after all, hasn't been a single administrative unit since Anglo-Saxon times, so it's a cultural question. The Scottish border was largely fixed in 1237. This three down two sides. There is a wide grey area in the South, but insofar as boundaries have been drawn for one purpose or another over the centuries, these have shifted. So for example, Cheshire is today counted as part of the Northwest for Government and statistical purposes, but in Anglo-Saxon times it was in Mercia. Not in north. And within the north there are plenty of historic local rivalries. We know all about Liverpool versus Manchester and Newcastle versus Sunderland and Lancashire versus Yorkshire. Others, perhaps a bit less well known to outsiders, include the fact that people in Sheffield used to look down on those in Leeds because Sheffield has made their money from steel not suits. In the book I sidestep these questions by adopting a liberal, inclusive definition. The north is where the people who live in a place think they're in the north, and a northerner is simply someone who thinks of themselves as a northerner. And after all, I'm not trying to create a government or issue passports. This identity or these identities have evolved over the centuries. The Industrial Revolution was the biggest shift. Suddenly, a region that had frequently been written off as backward was starring in the key global event, enabling populations to grow and living standards to rise eventually. Without a Malthusian cheque, from famine or disease? As George Orwell later put it, it was the industrialisation of the north that gave the north-south antithesis its peculiar slant. Northerners saw themselves as independent, straight talking, knowledgeable practical Southerners perceive northerners as truculent, lacking social graces over competitive, unsophisticated that relationship has changed again over the past century as the north fell behind economy. Too often now it feels like a supplicant region, always holding out the begging bowl. What the north badly needs is a recovery in its productive capacity. The new breed of metro mayors hope to achieve a green industrial revolution using the attributes of rivers and wind to Reindustrialization region and create well paid jobs and raise productivity. The north already produces more than half of the country's renewable energy. But success is far from assured. Other parts of the world are building green industries such as electric vehicles and low carbon hydrogen. Can this identity and or these identities be harnessed for political aims? Identity can be a dangerous thing in the Middle Ages, the students at Oxford and Cambridge divided themselves into Borealis from north of the Trent and Australis from South of it. And there were regular riots between them, right up to the 16th century. I think that was mainly an excuse for a fight like football casuals in the 1980s. Identity politics in the modern era of populism and intolerance can be downright poisonous, but I don't think it. Can be ignored. It underlies questions of politics and economics, certainly appealing to regional sentiment is not a surefire route to success. Northeast England has one of the strongest regional identities, but proposals for a regional assembly there were defeated by 4 to one in a referendum in 2004. Regional fairness is very much in people's minds. Today, however, it lies at the heart of complaints that the government's levelling up agenda lacks substance. That concern for fairness sits alongside the more technocratic argument that regional inequality and centralization are holding back growth. Now, I don't have a manifesto, but I broadly ascribed to the view that it's hard for a region to thrive unless it's people and their representatives. Have a strong voice in the issues affecting them. One lesson from successful regeneration schemes, most notably the revival of Eastern Germany or perhaps the recovery of some of our Northern cities since the 1980s. Is that you usually need. Local cooperation between public and private sectors together with a degree of buy in from national government. There are some optimistic signs, mayors and councils across the North appear more willing than in the past to set aside historic rivalries and work together. Just as long. As they don't have to agree where the capital of the north is. And both conservatives and Labour are talking cautiously about a degree of devola The government is exploring giving Mars a single funding pot and flexibility over how it is spent by pooling various funding streams. Labour is talking about 3 year financial settlements for councils and new powers for mayors and councils over employment support, transport, energy, climate change, housing, culture, childcare, provision, and how councils run their finances. Neither is terribly keen on fiscal devolution. The Treasury doesn't like Andy Street's idea of mayors keeping a proportion of the VAT and corporation tax revenues raised locally. Labour seems far from keen on Andy Burnham's proposal for a Northern Barnett formula. But both parties have brought the central economic argument about unbalanced growth, and they're acutely aware that if they offend against people's feelings about fairness towards their community, there is likely to be a political cost. Thank you very much. That's my lot.Brian, thank you very much indeed, and that's a great. That's a great. Opening and puts the. The question of perceptions of fairness alongside ones of identity and what what we're talking about this afternoon, just to say to the. Audience here there is a Q&A function on this call, so if you'd like to put. A question where I I will put questions from the Chair just cause it's simpler that way. Would you like to add to the list of questions? You can also indicate if you if you particularly like somebody else's question and you'd like to see it answered. So do use that. There is also a chat function if people want to have a parallel discussion while people are talking. I'm now going to go to Ryan's Swift, who's our second speaker, and I'm pleased that Natasha Val has joined us and she will be a respondent. After Ryan has spoken. So Ryan over to you.Thanks John and thanks a lot for inviting me this afternoon. So much of what I'll talk about here is based on research from my PhD thesis, which I've just recently submitted, so that looked to the politics of the N more broadly. But we've been. I've looked quite a bit the ideas around identity and enough so. As part of the. Research echoed out over 70 interviews. With political actors all personal. So from that I've been able to pull together some hopefully interesting highlights on highlights and insights on feelings around identity from all across the region. So what's clear is that identities aren't mutually exclusive as Brian said, and that they're often complicatedly layered. So I'll briefly talk about three different levels of identity and the politics of them, and present some snapshots of the findings from my research interviews. So first I'll look at regional and local identities. And touch on the role identity players in current thinking I'm. 2nd, I'll talk about Paranorman and identity and its role in the politics and governance of the North and 3rd. Our brutal understandings of Northerners and its relationship with Englishness. So start with local and regional identities and devolution. Given the focus on the geography of the city, regions associated with the so-called Northern powerhouse agenda, the initial phase of devolution deals across the north was largely focused on what was seen to be functional economic areas. So this resulted in deals in Britain, Manchester, Liverpool City Region, South Yorkshire. More recently West Yorkshire that actually seemed to reflect some form of City, region, economic, geography. Even that's been contentious. So for example, in interviewing harrogate's book have been economically linked with West Yorkshire, but not included in the deal over in Chesterfield spoke of how people felt strongly about not being included in the Sheffield City region and a representative from High Peak and other people. There have close economic links. Or South Yorkshire and Greater Manchester, but are excluded from each and instead of. Sandwiched between both. But further to these issues, in actually defining functional economic areas and other common critique of the geography of existing approaches to devolution across the north is that they fail to adequately resonate with people's identities. So some participants described existing devolved tiers as artificial as political and economic constructs. Where there's no discernible affinity. In contrast, still has suggested that some of the existing combined authorities across the North are actually beginning, or at least have the potential to become spaces of strong identity attachment and talk to the place and activities that are taking place, particularly in places like Britain Manchester. But in thinking about alternative approaches to governance in the north, some highlighted the importance and the potential of existing county identities. There was argued that this first understanding of what countries are and that public can more easily identified with them, but across the north there were different takes on this. So in Yorkshire, numerous interviews spoken in support of 1 Yorkshire devolution and highlighted the importance of Yorkshire identity in this. In Lancashire. The picture was somewhat different. Or one participant talked about, I guess a Lancashire wide devolution based on historic boundaries including Manchester and Liverpool and other interviewee actually in local government and the county youth against and Lancashire to what county wide is an impossible task. Previous debates around the geography of devolution in the Humber area are quite indicative of the tensions that exist between functional economic geographies and county geographers and what that means for identity. So on the north Bank of. The river there's much appetite for a Pan Humber devolution deal that include Hull and towns, such as Grimsby. And Scunthorpe and NE Lincolnshire. But South of the river there is great support, but I wouldn't think sure why county deal. Above the Council level, there appears to be only a limited appetite for regional governments and our level similar to the existing statistical regions such as the Northwest or the Northeast began to memories of the 2004 NE referendum, which was still highlighted by some. But ironically the new North East. Revolution Deal will mouth over the whole of the region that would have covered apart from the Tees Valley, which obviously has its own combined authority already. Moving on to look above the local and regional level. What about the identity and politics of Northern Ness as a whole? It's on the surface. There's a potential, a strong local and regional attachments across the north that I've just touched a limit, a sense of collective. How northern identity? So again, counter identities seem to be important. The well known and not particularly bitter rivalry between Yorkshire and Lancashire and also intra, Northern City and town rivalries too. So Liverpool and Manchester. Newcastle and Sunderland, for example. But despite these infra northern rivalries and tensions, it's important to remember that I didn't see attachments or lead so strong local and regional attachments within the north aren't necessarily a barrier that are also being a shared sense of northern identity. Indeed, this strength or local attachments within the north might actually play into wider notions of northerners. The arguments were made by some local pride, something that's very distinctive in the north, and that there's a sense that the northern means having a local identity. As well, in fact, when asked to define the North, many interviewees talked to the northern places and that they and that there's a sense that strong cultural attachments to these respective northern places feeds into wider attachments to northerners. Predominantly the ideas of a sense of collective northerners. Tends to be built on recognition of shared socioeconomic histories and contemporary challenges, as well as shared political grievances across the region. So there's a range of shared memories and ideas and characteristics that are commonly invoked to frame a distinct and at least partially unifying sense of nothingness. Northern identity also seems to be as per intention rooted in perceptions of the South of England, and there was a widespread sense that collectively the North defends itself. In contrast, an opposition, if you like to the South. So given all of this, there's a sense amongst many interviewees that the north, distinct and Englanders a mega region that holds significant resonance both in the North and externally. And I use the term mega region because in terms of identity, I think it's fair to see the north as being a region above one and many, so one vast region. Of smaller regions and subregions. In terms of the impacts of this on the governance of the North, there have there's been or this continues to be a number of PAN Northern initiatives, like the Northern powerhouse agenda, the Convention of the North, and bodies like Transport for the North and the MP11. Northern political leaders and the northern media are also increasingly cooperating to politicise the region as a whole and share and highlight some of the shared challenges and provinces. But despite this, there appears to be little appetite for more formal pan. Northern level of government. So whilst the vast majority of research participants were in favour of continuing our bolstering informal panel than cooperation and some were keen on. More paranormal powers. In some specific policy areas, only a small number talks about the potential. For more formal paranormal governance structures. Last, let's look briefly at the. Relationship between northern identities and Englishness. It's difficult to assess. The way that identities such as northerners and sub northern identities interact with English Englishness based on much of the existing Poland literature. Arguments pointing out the southern centric nature of Englishness and the exclusion of. Northern identities from it have been highlighted, so some have argued that the ideas of the areas of England and English Ness are largely based on an England of the South, that they simplistically leaves the north the northerners outside. In the popular imagination dark, dirty, industrial North has one being presented as all the to the Englishness constructed around the South of England. Further to this recent slip element, more than 80% of Northerners said that they shared values with fellow Northerners just only just over 30% put the same way about Southerners, and this is actually wider than the values gap between English and Scottish people as a whole. So it's for indicative of wider political discontent thought across many parts of the north. The sense of being ignored or left behind. But it might also be seen in the context of longstanding ideas that the north or at least notable parts of the foreign common with all the nations rather than perceived southern centric England. So historic and persistent ties between the north of England, especially the far north and Scotland, are recognised. And in other parts of the north such as Liverpool, historic links of Ireland has had to result in a complicated relationship with England. Yeah, well these ideas of the north is 1 English are interesting and to an extent valid. The degree to. Which England is a country and Englishness a sense of identity is seen as aliens of the north both in the recent past and present. Shouldn't be overstated. So England and ideas of Englishness are deep rooted and certainly there are no signs to suggest that there's a deep and widespread sense of complete alienation between the north and the rest of. England, there's no widespread and significant northern regionalist movement, for example. So such think it's more appropriate to think of northern identity as a distinct strand of Englishness, which which pulls in then local and panda organised entities that we've talked about already was less than Englishness. So as I tried to join this talk, it's a key feature of identities, but they're not mutually exclusive and they operated nested ways both upwards and downwards, and this certainly appears to be the case across the North, so I'll leave it there for now. Perhaps we can come back. A bit more of it. And the politics of it. In in the discussion shortly.Ryan, thank you very much indeed, and that was also great. I'm going to go now to Natasha Val, who's joined us after some technical problems, just to say what I did at getting enormously grateful to Natasha, who stepped stepped in literally at the last moment to because Amrin Qureshi wasn't able to join us. And and I know that Natasha has not had time to do a presentation as such, but I asked her to be a respondent to the other two speakers, so Natasha. I introduced you before as the Professor of Urban and Cultural History at Teesside University, over to you.Thanks very much. Can you hear me OK, I've had a few into this larger space so you can hear me fine, that's great. Yeah no thank you very much to Brian and John for that really rich all-encompassing I think.That's fine.Oversight of the the the contested nature of northern identities, which you know I spent quite a lot of time thinking about and writing about a bit earlier in in my career and what struck me when both of you were discussing this was this you know, particularly contested nature. Of the identity and the act. Potentially tenuous, but. Possibly quite exciting connexion between cultural identity and sense of place and and the the political context as we evolve with, you know, new ideas of of devolution. I moved to the north where I've lived in the late 90s. To start research for my PhD. And, uh, what struck me having not lived, uh, consistently in the north at that point was that there was, you know, a very clear kind of cultural expression of place affinity through predominantly dialect, which you know is really very striking and and something that. You know, I. Can move in and out of as a as an interloper. But my children that are born and raised in the north. Cannot divest themselves of that and will carry that identity through their dialect and their language where wherever they go, and I sort of followed that path of exploring that and found that you know there's a whole literature and an arc of history of literature and poetry quite closely aligned to. The history of the north and particularly the northeast. Where I was located. And that you could trace if you like the song lines of the industrial history through literature through art, through culture, and that you know and that historically in the 20th century and entire architecture around broadcasting television was created to try and capture that that place. Infinity and some are went on to argue that that created a caricature of the north. You know, the cloth cap N but I argued that actually in exporting those cultural products, those artefacts those. That that whole raft of things that were associated with that place affinity, not least dialect that created a broader understanding of what we could describe as a cultural region. So I think. There is a lot to think about in relation to place affinity, and in particular to pride, and there is a side of this, which is of course. Highly contested and there. It's, I suppose, located in that questioning of what where that identity sits when a place feels that it's left behind, or that it's inhabitants feel that they're left behind in the national journey. And that's, I suppose, where we are currently. And, you know, John, you spoke to that. In in some of your respondents to your interview. And that's giving rise to some, I suppose political dissatisfaction that we see reflected back into discussions around Brexit in our post Brexit politics. And in in some of the populism that we see that's that's prevalent in the the northern political context currently. I live currently in the sort of Teesside area, and that's a a part of the north. That's that's, you know benefited now from a devolved mayoral authority established in 2016 that was specifically intended action to speak to the creation of a of a positive sense of place, and through a raft of quite. High profile public projects around capital investment around the rehabilitation of the industrial sites following the closure of the steel industry and. With a real. Focus around green energy and new technology. But I think the you know place making effect of that infrastructure is really yet to be seen and and we watch with interest as this evolves, particularly around the developments relating to the Freeport for instance and need to think quite carefully about what this means in terms of. Local place affinity and and the role of our institutions in that as well. Where I live, I'm reminded constantly about the ridings also and their the identity of the of the Yorkshire ridings as they bump into the industrial zone of the Teesside. And the Tees Valley I in my local. Area have a TS post code but many inhabitants. That they're that path that see themselves very much part of the North Riding of Yorkshire, and, you know, petitioned frequently to be allowed to be moved into the sort of Darlington or Northallerton post code area. So you know the the local contested nature of the identity, particularly around. The the relationship to the post industrial and the industrial legacy continues to be quite a live issue for people that live in the north and particularly the parts of the north where I'm located currently and I think. Really, the. Identity politics question is one that we need to think quite carefully about in relation to the question of the identity of the North. Especially the narrative around perhaps a particularly you know masculine history of industry and and identity, predicated on pride in relation to that. And that's something that I I think we we need to acknowledge and speak about the danger, I suppose. Around reinforcing some of those caricatures and some of those. Cohesive stories is that it becomes an identity, that is, you know, can be described as a fortress identity. That is, you know, lacks an openness and then perhaps lacks the capability to think about how it might adapt and change in the future. So yeah, thank you very much. To both Brian and John and and I look forward to fielding any questions in relation to my contribution and yours too.Thank you very much. Thank you very much indeed. Just just to say Natasha because we didn't have a chance to talk properly before the beginning. It was Ryan rather than John who was doing who was talking. About the research.All right, OK, sorry about that.No, that's OK. We didn't have time for for introductions. Can I just say to people on the call? Please do put questions in the Q&A and I believe that the chat function should now be working, but let's see how we get on. I should say from my point of view. My contribution to this discussion until I was 63 I I live my entire life within a mile and 1/2 of the South Coast of England before venturing north by about 12 miles to Winchester. So I'm in no position to comment on northern identities. I can know, attest to the frustration that people feel when they get lumped together. As the safe as though everywhere is is is is London let let's go into the questions here and I'll just take the first part of a one that's come in from. An anonymous attendee. Build on any bit, they ask to what degree do the panellists think Northern identities are manipulated for political ends so it in what sense are perhaps? Politicians trying to to exploit the many layered sense of northerners that we've talked about. Perhaps I could add that, or put it a different way, which is that, aside from what the newspapers say and what politicians say is being from the north or a part of the north. A part of everyday conversation amongst Northerners, perhaps I could ask each of the panel members to to put their cameras on now and I'll Brian, perhaps you could you respond to that one first, then I'll bring the others in. So so is it? Is this a manipulative process or is this actually the lived reality of being in the north? That to talk of being from the North or your bit of it is is just the way people talk about themselves.I mean, I think that the politicians obviously will use. Whatever identity issues suit their book at a particular time and and in a way I'm I'm. I'm impressed by how little of of attempted manipulation there is. The moment compared with sometimes in the past. I think it's possibly because the north lacks power. And investment and UMUM. So therefore it's it's less. Tempted to try and score points between each other. Sometimes you see it as there's a lot of people taking a potshot at at Ben Hutchen in in Teesside. And a lot of arguments around aspects of what he's doing there as a Conservative mayor. But on the whole, I think it's fairly fairly fairly muted. I think it the identity question is more and kind of underlying question and it's more of a bit of a it's that. Almost inevitably, whatever formula or structure you try to devolve for devolution or for policy development, you're going to hit objections whenever you draw a boundary for any purpose at any time. There are people who fall in their view on the wrong side of it and. Think it's the wrong. One, so I think it's more of a a pitfall from that point of view for politicians than it is an an opportunity for manipulation.Ryan, thanks Ryan. Was and perhaps I could Chuck. On top of that. My impression is the different mayors in the north vary quite a bit in the extent to which they appeal to a broader northern identity rather than their particular quality. Would that be right?Yeah, I think so. I think it's used by some to kind of. Speak further north more than others if you like, and I think ultimately there's always going to be a focus on. The road patch, but I think. We've seen over the last few years that you come together when the shared challenges and grievances, and obviously that's political in some sense to kind of put pressure on the government in Westminster, but. I'm not sure it's manipulater. I think it's only possible for them to be able to do that because. There already is that kind of. Cultural idea of the north and northerners that already exists in kind of popular imagination that can be mobilised politically. So deep rooted ideas of a north-south, divide that as Brian said, go back 1000 years. If you like so. I think sometimes it might. Not be. Best level to operate at politically, but. I think in the north. Can be mobilised politically because of an existing kind of cultural centre. Northerners that exists maybe not on a day-to-day level as peoples primary source of identity, but I think it's there in the background in a lot of these. A lot of these discussions.Yeah, and Natasha. Presumably when all the north newspapers or all the major ones get together and have the same front page that in passes, because newspaper editors believe their readers want to read that sort of message.Yeah, that's right. So I think there are. There's probably just some lazy assumptions about you. Know what's palatable and what, what's OK and and and you perhaps some. It's not necessarily exploitation of the of the northern Ness as such, but more of perhaps particular socioeconomic characteristics. And other forms of identity. I think I I would probably tend to agree with Brian, and I think there's probably evidence. It's that you know that particular form of exploitation can be leveraged by Northerners themselves when they find it useful, so you know that it's a. It's an identity and a mantle that can be deployed in in different contexts, and you know the the mayor. For instance, in in the Tees Valley Combined Authority and is a very public figure and I think just. You know, likes to wear that badge. Of you know this is the kind of. Story pull northern. Politics that's going to get things done. No nonsense. Kind of straight talking and have and has really probably played to the gallery a bit in the in with the local press with that as well, so it probably works a bit both ways and. I don't know if exploitation is. Really the right word.Thank you now I'm interested to know to what extent do we think the salience of these identities has changed, say over the last 20 years because. As Brian reminded. In fact, it is nearly 20 years now since the Northeast referendum was defeated by Dominic Cummings with a white with a white elephant. And even if the Assembly powers were pretty weak, which was obviously one of the problems with it, there obviously wasn't a huge northeast feeling that they wanted this thing in other areas of identity. Things have changed hugely over that period of time. Alliance of Scottish identity north of the border. That the fact that England's national identities polarised markedly over Brexit and the 2019 election, if you went back and redid a NE referendum tomorrow, would, does anybody think it would be different? I got the impression Ryan from what you were saying that there's not necessarily a huge amount of enthusiasm for. Reflecting identities in governance structures.Yeah, I mean I've not done a great. Deal on kind of public. Public attitude, but from my my perspective best on what? I have done, I think. I think it's not so. Much the identity aspect of it. It's the kind of what another layer. Of politicians idea that it's still still. Being unpopular so. As we say now, both the main parties are shifting to abreast evolution and talking about rolling out all per single and and I think. That's welcome, and I think we'll be paying for it once it's there, but. Think that reside for it immediately. Right now is probably probably not the forefront of people's minds in terms of how that connects with identities, as I've tried to touch on in in my talk and addresses, I felt differently in different places all across the north. Some some institutions that might resonate with some. What rest and all of this? I think the important thing is I'm thinking about the geography of. Solution how once you've settled on a geography that's suitable, how you actually kind of build a sense of place and identity and that that can be used to engage people politically with that process.And just before I bring the others in, do do you get a sense that this though is a dynamic process, that the salience and perhaps even what what people identify with is actually changing and will continue to change because of politicians or because of economic unfairness or because of government initiatives?Yeah, well, I think the idea of kind of north and distinctions always been there, but it's probably become more salient. In recent years. It's been recognised more politically with the northern parrots, and so on and. Metro mayors, as we've talked about credit policies than offers. The whole from the. Media have to some extent in terms of local. Tendencies within existing devolved deals. I think some more progress than others. You've seen some areas where it was already perhaps and still like great Manchester. Be able to kind of do more to create a city region identity, but I think. That's the process. That all devolved leaders will be considered to try and make the kind of less new devolved deals kind of resonate with the resonate with the public.Natasha, what's that? Do you think this is a change? Constantly changing set of cultural and political identities?Yeah, I mean that's basically original. Question around. Would would people? Yeah would would they engage in vote for vote in? Favour of this. Was you know, replayed and I think. You would have the same issue, probably that you had in. 2000 and. Four and also the lane on that. The issue that we've seen in you know, local and national elections, that those that might vote might are likely to vote no, and perhaps you know, you know we're not getting engagement, particularly from. Other demographics, particularly young people, who you know, have got other ways in which they might express their identities and and their engagement in a in a formal. Process in relation to. You know, voting for this might be fairly limited, and so yeah, in my view it I think it it. It might produce the same. The same outcome if we replayed 2004.Brian thought.Yeah well the the the as. An example of the way attitudes changed. I would I. I would cite the Honba region, which I know because I I started working goul in 1976. Now Google was historically just about in the West Riding of Yorkshire. The time I started work it was in Humberside and now it's covered by East Riding Council. And you probably all remember the huge fuss of objections to Humberside County Council and the whole idea of creating a region around a big river where the identity was held to be strong on either side of it but didn't have much. To do with each. Each other and after a long years of campaigning it was it was ditched and it went. But today the the the local authorities and businesses on both sides of the Humber are cooperating in marketing the region as the energy estuary, hoping to build a future. Sort of offshore wind and things like that. Now I don't live there now so. I don't know what the. The the average citizens attitudes to that is, but I've not picked up a lot of a lot of opposition or objection to that and I. Think when when people can see there's a logic in an economic logic that then then perceptions can change about different places.You know, that's interesting. That's sort of a modern version or contemporary version of what you were saying earlier about the extent to which identities were in northern identities were in part rooted in the industrial revolution, and the sense of northern success and place. Could can I? Just follow up, pick up with all of you. Just to from a point that Natasha raised about. Young people and people not necessarily buying into this. Obviously the north like. The rest of England, perhaps less so than London, but but is now got, has many diverse communities, many ethnic minority communities grown particularly from the 1960s onwards. Can I just ask a general question? To what extent would there be any real differences between the extent to which I mean ethnic minorities? Clearly itself is a huge category, but the extent to which minority communities would buy in to these ideas of Northerners that might be seen as more traditionally rooted in the majority community. Ryan did your research cover any of that?Yeah, I tried to look at it a. Little bit but. It's difficult to get any kind of player player destron it, but. I think for some there's a sense that perhaps. Local and regional agencies can actually be more inclusive than national identities, perhaps so you know that sometimes ethnic minorities, less likely to identify as English, for example. So as a sense that maybe the local and regional level could be more inclusive in that sense, but I would definitely think it's something. It'd be worth looking at. In more detail.Yeah, yeah, there's that fits. Certainly some of the evidence there. Then Natasha or Brian. Do you have anything to add on that?I mean I, I feel like I'm coming across as the naysayer of northern inclusion. I think I would, you know there is. There is definitely. There is a a community based uh, identity and and you strong evidence of of pride in place, but I think could be very very inclusive, very welcoming of newer communities and we certainly see that in their increasingly diverse Tees Valley. But equally there are there are there are examples of you know. You know, quite pernicious exclusivity predicated in this is our place, and it's a northern place, and we could find evidence of both of those. I think we need to be mindful of that. The presence of the. Latter as well.Thanks very much. I don't worry about being an ASER. There are no rights or wrongs in this discussion for me. I think we're. All it is a complex situation and yet I'm picking it well. Brian, anything to add on that? Or should I?No, I mean I can the the the other example I I'd give of that these these things changing is that where I live in I'm talking to you from Saddleworth, which is historically in the West Riding of Yorkshire, but. Now part of Greater Manchester. Great bone of contention when it was introduced in 1974. Still is for some young people, but some some people. But they, the mix has changed in that back then it would have been all locally born people working in the mills. Now it's a more diverse. Economy, probably half the population are incomers of of 1 kind or another. It's become Manchester commuter territory. People work in services that sort of thing. But at the same time it's become. It is pretty white and we all remember the old and riots in 2001. One result of that is that the old and the Oldham Borough has become even more polarised, and there's been a a movement of the white population eastwards towards Saddleworth, while the. And the Pakistani Bangladeshi community Brown community has focused on on the West of the borough, so it's a it's a complicated picture. But it does evolve and people I. I don't think you know. There's a rigid mindset that people says that everybody says never over my dead body. Will I ever go in with this other area or? What have you? I think people are open to persuasion on things that they can see are advantageous.Alright thanks, I'm gonna pick up a question now from Arianna Giovanini who regulars will know was actually a panellist on the last webinar that that we held and and she picks up the point that Ryan and others have made that, that the the devolved structures don't necessarily reflect local identities. And Ryan I think gave us. Brian gave us a series of examples of people who felt excluded from the area they felt they belonged to and she goes on to ask. What, why is it so difficult for policymakers to incorporate these identity questions when they design devolution structures? Ryan, you opened this one up, did you? And would it make a difference? I mean, do you think if the chesterfields or the harrogate's of this world have been allowed to opt in, that you these would have created more successful, more inclusive, more widely recognised bodies?Yeah, I'm not sure it's a. It's a difficult one because obviously identities are often personal and the way some people identify with one religion or one former government will differ from others. But I think there's a case for making devolution. Law include inclusionary still bringing in citizens versus much earlier in the process. Than bringing them. In where devolution is already in place? And I think looking at added stairs, part of that is is definitely key. But yeah, I think it's. Difficult in in designing. Devolution deals to. Think about. I didn't say given that it's so contested as we've been talking about all the time, but I think it's definitely. As a a place to. Play as well as kind of these economic economic ideas that. Have been so prevalent in the last few. Years as well.Brian, if I come on to you, you mentioned Gordon Brown's report for the Labour Party, which if you take it at face value, says that a Labour government wouldn't impose regional structures, but therefore people at local level have got to agree what sort of regional cooperation and structures they want. I mean, looking at the region that you know well, how easy would it be to find a process in which the the local, the sub regional, the city region identities can come together at a larger level if that's necessary as as that paper suggests, for things like regional transport policy or skills policy or energy policy. Or are the? Divisions going to make that an incredibly difficult process.I I'd be reasonably optimistic on that in the the the the, the, the chances of of of cooperating on a N wide basis. If that's the logical place for for transport or for other issues, I think there is not not. Easy, but I think it's it's. It's possible. I mean we do for a long time now. We've ended up with a fairly complicated picture in England because people have at various stages tried to impose a a kind of some kind of logical simple structure in local government or in in regional assemblies over that that that. And that has run into opposition, so you've you've got little alternative really to trying to devolve to areas that people enough people identify with for to to feel invested in, but. The north as I said, has got. Better at cooperating and talking on issues that it sees of as of of common common interest. And I wouldn't completely. Rule out being able. To create some kind of functional way, it's when you when you want it, it's when you start shifting money and power. It becomes difficult, but I'm. I'm sure there must be a way of doing that.And Natasha, what's the? What's the mood in Teesside? And then the surrounding areas that you talked about? Do you think for seeing itself as part of some sort of larger region? If government says that you know you're you're not big enough to deal with some of the the the bigger questions of regional policy like transport.Yeah, I suppose it. It depends on whether you're talking, you know at the at the level of the citizen, in in the Tees Valley region. I think you know would help if. As as Ryan said, if people consulted at an early stage than you might get more proactive. Buy into something that was more coalescing, more coordinated, but that that hasn't really taken place. So I think people continue to see these structures as largely technocratic. And impose. Certainly you know just small adjustments to the transport infrastructure. It doesn't have to. Be a high. Speed railway north to South or across the north, but even within the Air Tees Valley area where it's really difficult to get from Darlington to Redbar and you know. And then of course you've got. Areas that are completely unconnected. So we've done work around the Tees Valley Combined Authority area and the sense of place within that. The lack of transport infrastructure within the combined authority areas is a is a clear impediment to, you know, even a sense of identity within that geography.Yeah, so what's what's emerging here is quite a dynamic relationship. Between devolution, the powers, how the economies develop in an area in the sense of people's identity, which leads me on to a question from Bernard Wiseman, which is a good one really, which? Is if the. If if people in Teesside or Greater Manchester or Merseyside. Were given the chance to get rid of their devolved powers and authorities would tomorrow would. Would they do so, or would they keep them? I mean, I suppose the analogy I'm thinking of is the Welsh Assembly that was. Passed by a tiny majority in the referendum over 20 years ago and is now the Welsh Senate. A fully formed Parliament with legislative powers from as far as I can see from the polling. Would would not be abolished by the people of Wales if they were given the chance to do so. So how well embedded are these institutions? And and and would people actually say for better or for worse, we'll keep hold. With them can I come back to you, Natasha? That was your judgement on that Teesside referendum.Yeah, on the existing structure, yeah.I guess if if somebody just went, you've got this now.Yeah, would you want to keep it? Yes, it would entirely depend on who you ask. I think they're quite well embedded in the in the local business community with the larger business leaders with the laptops. For instance, I think there's strong.You want to keep it.Brought to this sense of things are getting done, things are moving in the right direction. There's some momentum around T side. T side has a profile or the Tees Valley. I should say interesting nomenclature there to interchange with and there are some, but there are some tensions with the LA's with some of the local political leaders. And in the in the town, so you might get a different answer from them. I won't speak on their behalf because it's this is quite a politicised space. But certainly, and there are some tensions there around. You know the responsibility for different areas of governance, for instance, and who should have ownership for what? And and who's on whose patch, uh, I. Think the the the combined authority. Is you know? Has some battles to win in that space?That's interesting because I was in Bristol just earlier this week or the late last week, rather where they just had a referendum and destroyed decided to get rid of their directly elected mayor structure. But local politics appears to have played a role in in that. Ryan, what's your? View well embedded or?Yeah, I think I think some are more in better than others. Given the different pace of devolution moved. At the different times, different places have got deals and the different powers and resources that different areas have. So I think that all players and impact as well as the kind. Of question, question of identity. In terms of whether people would abolish them, I think I think in some areas perhaps they'd be. Political office that suggests they would, but I think you know this this kind. Of things that can point us. To say this is getting done. But I think we're actually. Still early days and I think. They need to be embedded more. I think there's more that kind of combined authorities could do to to to try and do that and turn out turn out in local elections. Still slightly in some areas, but I think there still needs to be more. To be done. To really really get it embedded.Thanks, Brian.Well, I know that the the politicians are have generally avoided regional referendums since 2004 the the metro mayors were not introduced to the referendums, and though we've had them as you say, on the we had the a lot of the local authority mayors have had had referendums. It's it's hard to. It's it. I mean, it's hard to tell what the degree of identity with the the the sort of the mayoralties and things beyond the local authorities really is and the not the problem with Umm with referendums is that you. They tend to get bound up in the politics of the time when you you call them. And the issues surrounding that. So the outcome is often often very unpredictable. And a good general rule. Moment is to to avoid getting too bound up in structural arguments which are bedevil this this topic for for decades and you do. Need to have sensitivity to peoples identity and views and more consultation would be a good idea but. I'm not sure I see a whole round of structural upheavals and referendums. Probably the way to go.No, I think it's interesting. I think that the the. The point that question was really about. And I guess my assumption is is that. Although originally there wasn't a referendum on having a mayor in Greater Manchester and people in Manchester said no, they've now had one for some time and I guess from from my far away southern English standpoint, the assumption is that people people would broadly like to carry on with that particular structure, which is slightly different. Whether people would would vote for a new structure in a referendum, but we shall, we we we shall see, I want to move on now. To a question. From Philip Hubbard But broaden it slightly so he he's talking about the failures to really establish structures in the East Midlands and possibly the West Midlands that that that become rooted. And whether there shouldn't be a different approach to the Midlands and whether that would help reduce the north-south divide, I'm. What I want to bring in off the back of that is there is this point that when people talk about the north and the South, if by the South we mean greater. London and the north. We mean the places where people feel N on your definition, Brian, there are actually more people in England who don't live in the South or the north than either the people who live in the north or the people who live in Greater London as. The South. And one of my questions really is when when northern identity is framed? Perhaps as a sense of unfairness, to what extent is there a recognition that actually in order to unlock what the North need? It's the way that England is governed as a whole needs to change, because these centralization may have particular impacts on the north, but just not on the north. So I just wondered, in the discussions about the north, to what extent this is seen as part of the need to change the way that England as a whole. Is governed or this is seen as specifically a northern problem or a problem of northern northern areas of England? Brian, can I come to you?Yeah, they were saying when I was researching the book I read a book by a previous writer who travel around the north in the late 1960s and 11 surprise he came across at the time was that people in South Yorkshire places like Rotherham consider themselves to be in the East Midlands, which is not what you'd expect. He he seemed to go back to two things. One during the war the the I think when England was administered by regional commissions, one of them covered that area and also the area was covered by the East Midlands Co-op. Yet today you would say that, say the biggest anomaly in the in the the southern boundary. She was probably Derbyshire. There's no way that that northern textile towns like Glossop and New Mills or anything other than northern but down in Derby in the South of Derbyshire. It's it's probably it's probably a bit a a bit different, so you you whatever you do in the north does have sensitivity. Both our immediate neighbours and and as you say, the rest of it. You you probably, I mean that that you you you. Whatever you do in terms of regional government devolution thing then you probably do have to make it available to to all parts of parts of the country without without trying to impose a single model on everybody.You you you.I can't can't envisage a kind of devolution for the north that excludes. The Midlands and the Southwest and the South and the east, in which they're not allowed to have the same devolved rights to self government as the north is so I don't. I don't think you can see it out of the context of English devolution. As a whole, no.OK Ryan, can I ask you about that? I mean I know there have been some examples. All the mayors in England I think got together with Michael Heseltine a year or two ago to to put out a call for new powers. But is is there a sense in the north that actually for the north to get what it wants, England needs to change?Yeah, I think so. I think that's increasingly recognised the talking to people about ideas of socioeconomic inequality, I think. Most people recognise that it's not as simple as it enough self divide, it's it's sometimes easier to for him. In that way, if you. Like, but it's obviously not that simple and I think devolution and things like levelling up or initially. Trying to speak perhaps more to the north than other parts of the country, but. I think now it's. Fair to say that both entirely. Countrywide agendas, so I think there has been a shift in. That regard, but just on the Midlands think it's kind of an interesting concept and that's a good question because when asking people to define. Or in cultural people define it sometime in cultural terms, in socioeconomic terms. In political terms, culturally people would see many towns that you'd talk as the middle ones, like Stoke. It's it's like not in has been part of the. North and that. During that cultural industrial heritage that Brian. Before and talk about that as 10 marker of northern Mr very much and then definitions plus in. The middle ones would be included. And that's socioeconomic ideas of kind of defining the north, but often. Draw a line from. From 7 to the washroom so that. It could watch. Watch waves in the Midlands as well and then increasingly likely the Midlands and north. Been lumped together with ideas of the red wolf with many red wall seats in in in the middle. Ones if you like well then the north so I don't think there's a clear N Midlands line so that sometimes gets lost in discussions of the north or ideas of the. North-south divide.OK.Natasha, can I turn to you and also put to you a question that Michael Howcroft asked because it's I think closer to where you are than our other two speakers. Whereas when the government does something like, say, they're going to put part of the Treasury in Darlington, does this have any impact on sense of regional identity or the importance? Attached to the north at all.Well, I mean, I think it's intended to, you know, signal a a sort of a devolution of resource, a levelling up initiative. And of course, you know. It it wasn't. Just putting the the Treasury in Darlington it was it was it was, you know, called Treasury North. So it I think it it was clearly signalling a reorientation of the gaze to the to that part of the the country and and to, you know, the civil service that's often seen as highly centralised. Arguably, you know quite an elite. Profession as well, with perhaps limited purchase in amongst citizens. Was recruited from the areas where the new offices are located, so in as much as it was, you know an actual move. It was seen and perceived as I think, rhetorical, in that space as well, certainly, and the impact of that is yet to be seen. We work quite closely at the university with colleagues. And you know, on initiatives to support a more a sort of widening participation in the civil service agendas, and that that is very challenging actually so. And you know the results yet to be seen. And yeah, and I I just wanted to respond to the original question. If that's OK as well in terms of devolution for every everywhere which starts to look a bit more like localism, I suppose rather than devolution then. And of course there are other models that we could think about, not least in the. The Scandinavian nations where there are high levels of local enfranchisement in terms of. Of fiscal autonomy and arguably lower levels of socioeconomic disparity as well. So maybe you know really what we're talking about is local enfranchisement rather than devolution.That's yeah, I think that's very interesting, because that picks up a point that Brian mentioned earlier that Andy Street I think had. We actually ought to be guaranteed a share of the tax revenues that are gained in our area, which is what I think happens in some Scandinavian countries. It's certainly what happens in the German Lander, which means that the Lander central government has to negotiate with the local localities. They can't just do deals, and I I think that's part of that wider debate. I'm going to end up now, I think just on one final question. Although you probably all feel you've answered it, but I. There's been a theme running through this about a sense of. Disenfranchisement or unfairness or not being properly represented as being a part of northern identity. Probably a difficult question, but to what extent? If we take these local sub regional northern identities together. Do they ultimately come down to a sense of feeling wronged and not represented, or are they actually now something that we see as a positive of people who increasingly feel they have a vision of what could be achieved in their area if only they had the powers to do it so? Final question, Northerners negative or positive. Ryan, then I'll go to Natasha, then finally to Brian.Yeah, so yeah, I think it's a bit of both really, so there is lots of negatives associated with the sense of kind of. Been ignored. Been looked down on if you like left behind being economically less advantage historically than other parts of the country so they could all be. Negative, but I think there's a recognition. Political actors in enough that there's the positive yes to next for the north as well. Can't just all be kind of going to Westminster begging for handouts as a positive vision of the north, and I think Paul Shore amongst ordinary people and enough to feel up to the point to music and film and TV and talk about all the. Positives of Northerners and being from the North, not just. To any negative negative dimensions of it. So yeah, a bit above.Thank you Natasha.I I want to end on a positive note. I think there's a huge reservoir of talent and as a kind of spirit of cooperation and collaboration and potential, and that just needs to be empowered and people need to be asked about what their proposed solutions are, because the ones that have been, you know, technocratically imposed. As we discussed, just haven't really worked so. It's just you know, unlocking that latent reservoir of talent and harnessing it.Thank you Brian.Yeah, and and and. The bit of both argument I was struck when I read Sebastian Paynes book. Broken heartlands about the the crumbling of parts of. The so-called Red Wall. The extent to which a lot of northern constituencies seem to be almost simultaneously left behind and yet newly prosperous. And the IT sounds like a contradiction. In terms, but it it's what. It what what the root of it? A lot of it was. The the the the, the weakening and crumbling of the old communal institutions. Big factories, trade unions and a much more individual economy. People working in the private sector. Or maybe the public sector living often in newly built houses. It was it's much more fluid and less tribal. Now it's not to say that that that the red wall won't all go back to Labour next time because the government very unpopular. But it suggests that these all these these identities that we talk about are fairly fluid now and. The on again to end on a perhaps optimistic note in relation to that. It's though there are a lot of strongly felt identities. It's not completely tribal. Old tribalism's do break down, and they can be social. They can be class ones and they can be geographical ones as well. So I think it is possible to construct ways. Please for people to to come together and acquire new powers and do new things for for different and wider groups of the population in the north than perhaps they have done historically.Thank you all very much indeed. I won't attempt to summarise, but. That's a very. Positive note to lead on and I guess my my sense is none of you have said that identities are the answer to everything, but you've all in one way or another said they have to be part of the answer. If it's actually going to work and that. Note there the sense of the optimism if people can be empowered to shape things themselves and can get a fair deal, provides a good way forward for this part of England, but quite possibly by analogy for England. England as a whole. Thank you to our audience. Our next webinars on the 28th of February. And we'll be looking at the next election and ask what are the factors that will be determine Who Will Win? Who Will Win England? But for now, thank you very much indeed. In particular, thanks to our speakers goodnight.Thank you John.