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The University of Southampton
Centre for English Identity and Politics

Windrush 100?

Windrush 100?

John Denham

Well, good afternoon everyone. Who's joined us or is who is joining us for this webinar about Windrush 100. I'm John Denham. I'm the director of the Centre for English Identity and Politics at Southampton University and I'm hosting the the Webinar today. We've got 2 great speakers who I'll introduce. Property in due course, but Juanita Cox and Lisa Anderson will be discussing what we might be talking about in 2048, will, which will be Windrush 100. Obviously this year has been the 75th anniversary of the arrival of the SS Windrush at. Tilbury, though by no means the first arrival, it's taken on a symbolic importance for the wave of immigration that came into the United Kingdom from the Caribbean after the Second World. War and the last year has seen a an extraordinarily wide range of Windrush 75 activities, ranging from community events to the issuing of a special Royal Mail postage stamp. One of the interesting things I think about the past year has been the many different ways in which it has been presented. There have been elements of commemoration of the original generation and exploration of the history of the events. The problem that people faced, the achievements that people are proud of, the ongoing issues such as the Windrush. Scandal. Or perhaps we just call it the Home Office scandal and continuing race. All of those elements have been there before. Last year there was a letter to the Times signed by 100 prominent figures including Lenny Henry, Benjamin Zephaniah, David Lechuga saying that the year was going to be important, and that letter put the emphasis on Windrush. As a part of British history, not just an element of black history. Patrick Vernon, who chaired the steering group for the year, has said there there have been different ways of looking at it. Some have seen it as a Caribbean experience, others African and Caribbean. Others have seen the the year in the wider context of migration from Commonwealth countries, former colonies and. The development of a multicultural Britain. Uh Paul Elliott Elliott, one of the early pioneers in professional football. Talked about Windrush as a time for celebrating The Pioneers. He also said celebrating the progress that's been made because. Football is no longer a place where racism has given a voice every Saturday afternoon to an arguable case that English football is now a pace setter for aspiration and a diverse society. But he also talked about the need for a commitment because not all of the problems have been solved. The racism has often gone. Online progress in the boardrooms and management of football are not the same as on the pitch. In culture, Spotify had a Windrush 75 Spotify list, including Stormzy and Southampton Zone, Craig, David and Boney M and others. And in a survey of. In in organisations, a survey of community organisations asking what mattered most to them. There was a strong emphasis on contributions made to the NHS, to the faith communities in this country and to the armed forces. So the question for today is. If that's where we are today, and I'm sure we'll discuss what has happened so far. What will we be talking about in 25 years time? What issues will remain the same? What should be changed? What commitments might we want to make to further change now, just before introducing our speakers? I've had somebody on the chat suggesting there are two persons.

So our first speaker is Lisa Anderson. She is the director of the Black Cultural Archives, located in Windrush Square in Brixton. And our second speaker. We will be Doctor Juanita Cox, who's a historian, a research fellow fellow on the Windrush scandal, in a transnational and Commonwealth context. I'm going to go to Lisa 1st and then I'll go to. You'll notice you've got a Q&A option at the bottom, probably at the bottom of your screen. If you're on a A a laptop or an iPad, please pose questions as the speakers are speaking and afterwards, and I will draw on those questions to manage the discussion after. We've had our first two speakers, so I hope that's straightforward enough and I'd like to go now to Lisa and ask you to. Say a few words.

Lisa Anderson

Hi, thank you. Thank you so much for welcoming me into this conversation, John. It's an honour to be able to advocate for and share information about the work that we do at Black Cultural archives. As John said, I am the Managing director at Black Cultural Archives and it's a profound honour for me really. UM, particularly because I consider myself as a daughter of the Windrush generation. I'm now in my mid 40s and I'm the daughter of Beverly who came here to the UK in her 20s in the early 70s, answering the call for support for the development of the National Health system here.

And also the daughter of Maurice, who came here as a young boy. In the late. 50S and went on to have a 30 year long career serving the Royal Mail. Everything about the conversation. About the relevance. Of Windrush, the generation is born through my life. I was the first child to go on to have uh university education in my family. My brother followed. Quickly after I was particularly interested in international relations. Means questions of power relations between different countries and with a particular interest in and culture based in. What I saw was a glaring absence of representation in my own education of the African diaspora and its relevance to the UK, and the contributions that have been made to society at large across all areas of our existence. From the African dust.

Speaker

Right.

Speaker 3

That led me to going on to do a Masters in human rights and whilst pursuing that. All of those studies. Ironically, I met the niece of Len Garrison, who is one of the key founders of Black Cultural Archives, where she told me my uncle has this amazing initiative. I think you'll really be interested. And I was. And fresh from my graduate studies. In human rights, I came and visited Black cultural archives at its first location on Cold Harbour Lane in. Brixton and was totally overwhelmed by the wealth of. History and knowledge. Empowering inspirational knowledge that it held about the contributions that hadn't been made to society from the African diaspora and particularly the Windrush generation. So to be as Managing Director 20 years on is full circle, but again representative of my commitment to this issue. My representation of this history. So this conversation about. The importance of recognising that history, not only in the wake of the 75th anniversary that we all. Well, I hope many of you were involved in, but of course myself and Anita were definitely involved and aware of and contributing towards. Also looking ahead and thinking about.

Continue this on and what will it look like in 25 years time is very relevant to the work that I do at Black Cultural Archives. Perhaps would be useful to give you a bit of insight into what Black cultural archives really is. We see ourselves as the. Home of Black British history. We celebrate being one of, if not the main national heritage organisations that exist to collect, celebrate and preserve the histories of people of African and Caribbean descent in order to in and give strength to individuals, communities and society. We are a profound resource of material research material for people to engage with those histories. Power themselves and have a better understanding of the more complex, nuanced, and inclusive story of Britain's more inclusive story of Britain than is currently supported by our National educational curriculum. And as was said at the start, we have a very address behind me, this backdrop that I have is a picture of our awesome headquarters on One Windrush Square in the heart of Bridgeton. And the very fact that we're in Brixton is an awesome and function of our integral connection to the Windrush story. As many of you will know. Many of those migrants to the UK who are already part of the that. Family of colonial nations. If you would like. Came to the UK via Tilbury Docks and ended up in Lambeth and dispersed. Within Brixton and established communities and as that legacy that has led to Black cultural archives being in Brixton 25 years on from now, how relevant will it be to be in Brixton? Well, I think it's going to be integral to to for us to be in Brixton as a historical organisation. That is all about. Maintaining that connection to history and advocating for that inclusive approach, as I said. Also, it's important to say that. Many of those involved in founding Black Cultural archives were from the Windrush generation Len Garrison. He, like my father, came over in the late 50s but responding to. I've only given you our our mission in terms of existing to collect, preserve and celebrate, but the question? Really requires us to consider why? Why was that even necessary? Why does it continue to be necessary? And that's obviously because of the racism and the inequality that existed and unfortunately persists. That cultural archives is coming into its 443rd year of existence. So we were founded around the 1980s. And we all know at the beginning of 1980s that there were a number of uprisings resulting from the. Unequal and racist experience, particularly of the black communities. Not only was that in response to treatment from the criminal justice system, the policing system, but also the educational experiences of the black communities and other minoritized community. Black Cultural archives comes from a context of community based activism in response to those challenges. The Black parents movement. We're key in making sure that. Young black children, particularly from the 60s, seventies onwards. Their experiences of the education system, where some children unfortunately were deemed educationally subnormal and had discriminatory experiences that those experiences. Supported by community based activities. So it led to the development of the supplementary school movement. The Black Supplementary School movement, the Black Saturday school movement. And with Lynn garrisons. Uh, work. It led to him establishing an organisation and resources, the African therapy and Educational Resource project, which led to resources targeting young black children. Educating them about African history, the African diaspora with a view to empowering, educating them, lifting them. So that's the context for why the Black Cultural Archives now exists as a repository for thousands of documents and materials that speak to a whole host of organisations individual. Actors from the black community, their records, which people can resource research to create new knowledge. So this centenary. It's really about how we continue on with the importance of our work to collect, celebrate and preserve those histories. And it happens within a context where, unfortunately. The education system in terms of the curriculum is still not representing the complexity of the legacy of imperialism and colonialism in its core curriculum. That is still an issue. And Black Cultural archives is ongoingly. Committed to advocating for change around that and for meeting the gap through our collaboration with universities and teachers, but also by. Ongoingly delivering our own learning programmes. So what does black cultural archives do? Well, as well as being a research resource where we ongoingly catalogue and make available those resources for research, we also want to be ongoingly collecting information about black experiences. So the the legacy of the Windrush generation and its relevance to all of our lives, that's what we do in terms of collecting and activating that history. But we use that to educate and inspire. So we have a learning programme that's all about delivering information about the Windrush legacy and the wider history that is its context really. Because we're very invested in saying that black history is British history, but that history. Goes way beyond post war migration from the colonies. It seeks to complicate and make more inclusive. Britain's idea of itself and and the different waves of migration that have come across the centuries from different parts of the world, including Africa, that's we do in terms of educating this fire and the third element programmatically of our work, is that celebration. So our exhibition. And events programme to bring those conversations into contact with those people who are not necessarily going to research. They're not necessarily going to come and do a learning programme with. Us. But once somewhere that is dedicated to inspiring and informing people about their connection to this history, because it is relevant to us all. That's what we do. So, 25 years from now, will it be relevant? Well, I guess you can probably tell that I'm going to say 100% yes, not only because of the glaring emissions that currently exist in our educational curriculum, but and the inequities that persist in terms of the different. Outcomes of racism in in our society. But not but especially because of the consequences of the Windrush scandal. I won't go into the details of the Windrush scandal. I'm really hoping many of you are familiar with this by now. But the fact that. Our government has yet to fully implement the recommendations of the report into the Windrush scandal. Is is proof enough that this is an issue that needs to remain in conversation. Justice still needs to be achieved in it and without organisations. That have Windrush legacy on their agenda in terms of the work that they do. I think efforts towards achieving justice will be really undermined. So for this reason, I believe that the Windrush centenary should. Be a a really important focus for all people interested in justice. All people interested in inclusive history and should serve as a catalyst for addressing critical issues around education. Accurate historical narratives in in order to foster an inclusive and tolerant culture. What are ongoing goals for BCA? We believe in having an important role in how. Historical education, uh can fuel a more tolerant society and we also want to partner with intellectual leaders and educational institutions to present community engaged historical representations. And I said we were one off a number of organisations. I was saying one of the leading we have for many years being the leading National Heritage Organisation dedicated to this conversation. Well, on Friday I was really pleased to be welcomed into the House of Lords for a very important. I have been invited on by uh Baroness Floella Benjamin, along with many others who are doing work in this in this field around education and history. To celebrate a historic partnership between the National Windrush Museum and the National Maritime Museum. So alongside Black cultural archives, there are initiatives like the National Maritime Museum, which are really important, again underlining the significance of the Windrush conversation to the making of modern Britain. And one of the things that I was really moved by was just how straightforward. The CEO of the National Maritime Museum, present straightforwardly. Rather, he presented the relevance of this partnership to. That institutions ability to tell an accurate. Story about our nation's maritime history. Windrush and its story is British history and so 25 years. Yes, from now we're going to be dealing with a very different type of Britain. Our population is is likely to expand, our populations are black, communities are looking like they're going to increase. But also become more integrated and more mixed. For me, that's a huge opportunity to make this conversation central to British culture and British history. And rather than us thinking that it would, would would kind of decline in relevance? The sad and unavoidable truth is yes, many of those few descendants. Uh few people who were on Empire Windrush. Are unlikely to be with us 25 years from now. Well, I as a daughter of the Windrush generation, God's willing, I will. I will still be here and my descendants will be around and I think it's in in. Inordinately important that all people understand my history to this conversation. My relevance as part of their connection to me, and acceptance of my story as being. Part of the wider British story. In my final comments, I would just like to say that I'm very excited to be work, to be, have been invited to that celebration. I look forward to Black Cultural archives playing a formative role in ongoing conversations about the relevance of Windrush early in terms of advocacy. Around justice for in the wake of the Windrush scandal, but in terms of advocating for a more inclusive approach to history and. Ongoingly, making sure that as those pioneers. Aid that their stories are documented, they are honoured and that people can come to black cultural archives and the national and go to see objects in the National Windrush Museum to really engage with those histories, educate themselves and celebrate. The rich legacy of that generation. So please do come and visit Black cultural archives, but I'll hand over to Juanita Cox for now.

Juanita Cox

OK. Thank you, Lisa. Thank you very much indeed. That was very, very compelling, not only putting your organisation in the context of the work done by pioneering members of the wingers generation, but a powerful case there. I think you said to be more central even over the next 25 years than over the past 25 years. And I I hope we can come back in the discussion on some of the particular issues about education history and so on that you've raised just before I go to when it's can I just do, Anita, can I just say. Please do put there's a lively chat going on and people sharing all sorts of resources which is great. Please do put some questions to the panellists into the Q&A please because that will help me not just ask my own questions but ask yours too when we come to the discussion. But to go now to Anita Cox, who's a research fellow on the Windrush scandal. For the Institute of Historical Research, over to you.

Speaker 4

Thank you very much, John. And yeah, just to say thank you so much for inviting me to be part of this discussion. It was wonderful to hear from Lisa. I'm going to be well. I was asked to talk for 10 minutes essentially and to think about particular questions. So I'm just going to bring up the slides that I'm going to be using. See if you can. See, so can I assume if can somebody indicate whether or not they're seeing the first slide?

Speaker 2

They're not full screen at the. Moment, they're.

Speaker 4

Not full screen, OK. Hang on, let me go and change then the screen. I wonder if that's that one. Is that? Full screen.

Speaker 2

Perfect. Yes, that's it. Perfect.

Speaker 4

OK. Perfect. Brilliant. Yeah. So so, so I was invited to talk for 10 minutes about things like, you know, how do we prepare for Windows 100? What will we be talking about and remembering in Windows 100? And it sparked off so many different ideas, but also just complexities. And and I I just wanted to clarify before going into the talk to say that I'm coming from the position of someone who's a research fellow working on the Windrush scandal, in its transnational and Commonwealth. And so on the one hand, I'm someone who's kind of rooted in history, but I'm also someone who's very interested in ideas of heritage and also have been aware that with Windrush 75 and also with Windrush 70 that it's been those events were great. For the community, but also that in some ways they obscured what was going on with the Windrush scandal. So I'm just saying that's kind of set the context and and and the direction that I'm coming from. So just going to the next slide, one of the things I just wanted to talk about was, you know, how do we, what, what does what will Windrush 100 mean in 2048 you know and when we come to think of that about that, we have to think about the changing face of of Britain. And I was just thinking recently that that we still. In in many ways still have conversations that are slightly outdated and still rooted in this idea of multi multicultural Britain where we have distinct, well organised kind of African, Caribbean and South Asian communities. But we need to bear in mind that we've actually shifted into in your position. So whereas before those communities were directly linked to the British Empire and colonialism, we've become a nation of super diversity. And I just wanted to, you quote something from vertebrae. You've written something called the emergence of super diversity in Britain in 2006, and he talks in that book about the increased number of new small and scattered multi origin transnationally connected socioeconomically differentiated and legally stratified. Migrants and so there's consequences of that. And one of the things is that we now have, you know, mixed race Britains are the country's fastest growing minority group. And it's been estimated that by 2150, around 75% of the population will be mixed race. And and that's based on research by Doctor Remy, Eddie Koya at the University of York. And so we need, we will need to understand. How mixed race identity is felt? And the best way to do this is through. I would suggest is through story and oral history and just in connection with this with the with the whole issue of remembering stories from, you know when we're thinking about how do we shape stories that will be meaningful to Windows 100, it's worth pointing out that the mixed race community as it currently stands. Is is largely white and black Caribbean. They remain the largest mixed race population in England and Wales. There was, I think, just over 500,000 people who identified as such in the 2021 cent. Which was up from 20% in the 2011 census. So in a sense, the Caribbean migration, the Caribbean community is becoming very integral to British society, not just through the fact that it's been they've been here generationally, but also because they are. Actually, literally into marrying into all sorts of different strands of British society. The problem with this, as Doctor Emmy Adekoya has noted, is that this kind of unprecedented interracial mixing is happening in a world that is becoming increasingly racialized, racially polarised, and you know, of course we've seen Brexit, the impact of Brexit. In terms of the impact on the European Communities, super diversity is also added complexion and so it's become incredibly difficult to talk about race in this kind of the traditional kind of binary fashion of black, black or white. And I'm reminded to of of Suella Braverman, who very recently made the kind of divisive claims around that. You know, saying that multiculturalism had failed and was a threat to the security of society. I just want to clarify that I don't personally agree with that. I think it's a in terms of. Multiculturalism. It's clearly been a success. We wouldn't be seeing the diversity that we have within Parliament at the moment or that, you know, I mean, people are represented in in all spheres of British life, although obviously in terms of the impact of racism, there's still a huge amount to do. But I think Windrush is a story, is a story that highlights the positive impact of immigration on the British economy, but is also added vibrancy to the national culture and in that way remains incredibly vital as a means through which we can challenge these kind of logics of racism. And anti immigrant hostility, you know, because on the one hand, Britain kind of celebrates its the richness of its culture, of our national culture. And that richness has come as a direct result of of immigration. But on the other hand, it's as if it wants. To appropriate that culture, but then not have the people that represent that represent it in the same way that it maybe wants to extract labour, but not necessarily have those populations staying here permanently. So this is kind of mismatch between multiculturalism and the multi racisms. And and and and where and a need to use the successes of immigrant communities. To kind of undermine the logics of racism, importantly, the winter's experience can also be linked to the experiences of of the non Commonwealth migrants. So these people I'm referring to as having created, you know, added the diversity to British society. It's in the in the sense of. Being it now being super diva. Class and think about the fact that through the impact of changing legislation, starting with asylum and immigration, the Immigration Acts of 1993 and also the environment, hostile environment policies on anyone considered migrant. So you know, I kept thinking about, you know obviously material from the Windrush scandal or the. Oral history stories that are being collected by the community, by lawyers, by all the advocates of those who have been caught up in the scam. And in addition to the material that we're producing as a project, obviously as part of the Windrush scandal and the project we're working on, we're also pulling together 60 or so oral history interviews that look at the unfolding of the Windrush scandal that look at it also in in in its. The longer history of the Windrush scandal, but that also look at the advocates of those community communities and they're kind of resist the history of resistance and agency. And those kinds of oral history recordings can be used in schools to prompt conversations around the experience of migration and the kind of evolving characteristics of citizenship, you know, because. It's sort of easier to determine, I guess, whether you were you were a citizen by the parts of society that you were allowed to engage with or that you were expected to engage with. But changes in legislation and the status of different types of him, you know, as I was speaking earlier about this thing of legally stratified immigrants, has become actually quite difficult. In a sense, there's tiers of citizenship, there's tiers of belonging that now make our understanding of what Britain is quite complex. Umm. And I guess one of the things that has also emerged from the project that's that I've been thinking about a lot is this kind of separation between history and heritage. And in thinking about that, I've I've been drawing on David Lowenthal, and I'm just gonna. I've I've added in orange a few statements that he he's made that I think are really useful when we are thinking about planning for Windrush 100. And he said things like heritage is not history, it's important to understand. Myths are essential to. National identity. Heritage is heritage kind of attached to our identity that it affirms our work. That, you know, obviously historians are going to aim to reduce bias, but heritage is something different. It actually sanctions buyers. It might focus on things that make us the power, uh, powders. It might focus on the things that strengthen us that that, that unite us. And so it kind of creates a a different kind of vision of Britain from the sort of standard. Histories, UM and he goes on to say that the point of history, and I think he's borrowing this from somebody else. But he says the point of heritage is not that the public should learn something, but they should become something. And those those statements by David Lang Lang so led me to various points of consideration that I think need to be thought about and considered as we're as we're wondering what Windrush 100 is going. To look like. So you know, when I'm thinking of winter 75 this year. The stories aren't really compatible with Britain's wider story. It really felt like we were telling a story that was part of Britain's overall story, and there was this focus on, you know, you know, when we think of the statue at Waterloo. There's the there's the poem there that talks about they they called. We came this idea that we helped to build reality that that, that the migrants from the Caribbean had helped to build post war Britain, that they contributed in significant ways to British society and that despite. A lot of the racism and the challenges there. Place that there. There was a there was an extent to which they'd actually transcended a lot of that adversity to become successful and contribute in the many ways that they. Had but the problem I then had with this narrative, and I was thinking about how does. This fit in. Is that it can suggest this kind of complicity in its approach to ideas of heritage. And of nation building. And and and why this is and I just wanted to clarify why I find this slightly problematic in that I mean it doesn't have to be a problem, it's just something to think about. But it's the fact that British identity is built on a myth that is intended to make the majority, and I would argue the conflicts that arises because the majority. You see in the way it's currently shaped as viewed as white, so the majority white population feel proud of its history, you know, so that's why we have this kind of focus on. Maybe Will Beforce is the primary abolitionist, but of course we know that you know, there there been numerous uprisings and rebellions within the Caribbean that actually begin to make slavery completely untenable. There's all sorts of reasons as to why slavery is brought and brought to an end, and a lot of it to do with the agency of the black community. People like otterbach. Oladi equiano. You know many different activists within the community, but yet still, you know, in terms of the national story, it's focused on. On Wilberforce. There's also this idea of the British Empire as a kind of benevolent force. And there's this sort of resistance to including the more kind of complex and horrifying. Realities of empire and in particularly this whole the history of enslave. I was thinking also that you know there are still issues because when the government offered funding for Windrush Day and you know the funding was to get significant members of the Community could apply for it. But the problem with that was that the government then had stipulated or the problem as I see it is the government had then stipulating. The funding for the Windows application couldn't be used for political events. And inferred via that that there were certain points of conversation that through which the government that might be considered by the government as as as being divisive, and one of those things, of course for me, I mean, that was particularly problematic because of the ongoing when the scandal. The fact that the the compensation scheme wasn't working, you know, and actually needed to be withdrawn from the from the Home Office and and be be an independent scheme, but for all sorts of other reasons. It just struck me as being really problematic. So when we're thinking about heritage and how we structure heritage, how do we actually reconcile these complexities and and and stories that in essence can be in conflict with what? As it currently stands, maybe the majority, the 84% of the population wants and and and which the government through its its behaviours and practises seems and seems sort of insistent on supporting those kind of hegemonic narratives, rather than recognising the reality of Britains. Fundamentally diverse communities, which have always been immigrant communities, whether you you're talking about long before the Windrush, whether you're talking about the Romans, you know all the different European influences, the Huguenots, you know, there seems to be this kind of resistance to frame Britain. As a country of of immigrants, what it does seem to be willing to do is look at this whole issue of of multiculturalism. But I, but I'll stop to that cause I don't want to go on too, too much longer. I I wanted to then go on and say that we need to ensure that Windrush is not delinked from the colonial past. You know. The sort of pre 1940 eight Storey because of the ongoing demands for reparations so. You know, for me, this is a really complex issue. Windrush is really vital to the nation. Story, but there are also very serious activities going on. Within the community around reparations and as part of reparations, one of the demands is the the need to tell the true story of empire, the need to tell the true impact of enslavement on Africa and the African diaspora. So I guess. When we think about when Rush 100, we need to be thinking about one of the most important aims of the winter story. What are we trying to achieve by it? Is this about making us proud? Is it by trying to bring us together to integrate us into wider British society? Is it about telling us positive story? Of immigration and I can't say I have the answers. In fact, one of the the aspects of the project. Was to get a sense of the impact of the Windrush scandal on people's identities and what I found is that even the definition of the Windrush generation, I think everybody in the Community will will relate to this is that and people have a really wide variety of views so. You know, obviously the Sam King and Arthur Torrington, who kind of framed as those who arrive on the Empire Windrush. There's Trevor and Mike Phillips, who kind of talk, I guess more about the spirit of Windrush. Those who arrived in the 50s and 60s and who produced those really amazing 4, the four part documentary in for the 50th anniversary of Woodridge in 19. 98 But then now we've also this has been complicated by the scandal. Whereby you know the media, but also Wendy Williams in her Windrush lessons learned report as well as the Home Office and the way that they've been able to kind of formulate the task force and who was able to apply for citizenship under the scheme, they've all kind of slightly expanded the definition of Windrush to those who arrived. Before night, you know, post war. But before 1971, when the 1971 Immigration Act. Came into play 1973 when it came into source, but then also others are looking at well hang on a minute. There's also 1998, which the scheme allows. Anybody who came to Britain prior to 1980 to apply to the scheme. And when I was interviewing people like Martin Ford, Martin, you know, obviously is is part of the King's Council. And he was mentioning that, you know. How do we define winters? Because at the end of the day, they're also Caribbean people who came to Britain as colonial subjects after 1971. And so there's the the core Porter. People who were from Grenada from Saint Lucia, from Antigua St, Saint Kitts and Nevis. I don't think even I think think it's a Nevis became independent 1983. So what does the wind which story do with those people? And then of course we have like Professor Gus John, you know he recently wrote a book. I've forgotten the title of the book now something. Like, don't salvage the Empire Windrush and and it and it's kind of a narrative against the Windrush, alization of everything, but I think we can. Understand where he's coming from because it's very much about history as opposed to this idea of heritage. And clearly he's worried about, you know, let's not obscure the presence of the African set of people who contributed to Britain in the period prior to 1948. And and then finally, I just wanted to come to Patrick Vernon, who of course has been really central to the establishment of a National Windrush Day as opposed to kind of, you know, we think of Sam King as giving birth to Windrush Day. But Patrick Vernon actually getting the kind of political fraternity to agree to a Windrush Day and his kind of vision of. Windrush is being symbolic of post war migration to Britain from the Commonwealth and that makes sense too because obviously on the Empire Windrush they're, you know, the ship arrived with people who were from Poland and other different parts of the world it. Wasn't just people. Who had the Caribbean as their last place of residence that were on board that ship? The other thing that came up a. Lot in the. The interviews that I've been conducting is that something?

Speaker 2

We'll need to. I'm going to ask you to wrap up doing to try to draw. Well, I want to make sure I got time for contributions this.

Speaker 1

OK.

Speaker 2

Is fantastic. I've got. I've got.

Speaker 4

Absolutely don't. Don't worry. I'm I'm coming. This is very quick. There's. But there's two more slides, I think. But just to say, yeah, there are other issues around Windows that we need to think about. I will move away from that just to talk about looking forward. What I think we need to be thinking about as I've I've inferred there is, think about how what is the significance of Windrush to Caribbean descended communities. And you know, we need to be thinking about that now before we get to Windrush 100 to kind of build consensus around Windrush. You know it, it may become a single story, or it may remain this kind of story of complexity and how people are differently impacted. You know, either way, we need to give voice, we need to amplify those kind of different perspectives. I think the other thing that I would really advocate for is. Trying to create a kind of searchable database of the many disparate sources of oral history. Buildings that are all over the country because that will help us then think about what the common stories are, but also what stories haven't been told. I haven't heard a lot about the evolution of things like credit unions in the UK or about, you know, settlements in particular parts of the UK. You know, we need to kind of explore. The the the kind of areas that people from different islands have settled in the UK in and just to get different perspectives. But I'd also say that we need some kind of activity where we're really trying to collate aspects of tangible heritage. So family photographs out of print journals, book collections, the airmail letters that people used to write to each other, you know, obviously with the what, what, what we call now, kind of like barreled children with parents writing to their children. In the Caribbean, you know, keeping them up to date while they're based here and their children are still based overseas. And so I'd advocate then for the. Report of the development not I've put. Sorry, I can see this is I've put this the wrong way around but support the development of the wind. Russian National Museum. But I think what I want to see is kind of collaborations between the Black cultural Archives, the Windrush National Museum Lisa mentioned earlier. Of course, the event that she attended in which the National Maritime Museum was also involved. But also the Migration Museum and I kind of see that all of them can have at their core this kind of story. Of Of of post. Or immigration or migration, but also is providing spaces for discussion around the wider Commonwealth and stories of super diversity in Britain. So that's me. Thank you very much for listening.

Speaker 2

Thank you very much. And that's been another incredibly stimulating and challenging talk and I could spend all afternoon asking my own questions, but I would like to bring in the the audience and. It what's clear from both of your contributions is that one of the great issues of the 20 next 25 years is going to be which story is it we're trying to tell and why? And picking up on a couple of a couple of things in the Q&A, Karen Hamilton vanish says I think the Windrush story is the last link in the chain that brings the British. Empires interference in African people's lives and history, full circle and. Kwame Phillips says that he agreed with Doctor Cox that Windrush 100 or 76 onwards has to be about challenging the mythology of Britain rather than complicity and comfortably fitting into the myth. So those are two endorsements when the window 75 was being set up, there was some background research. That said, that 64% of the public think children should be talked, talked about should be taught about the Windrush. To help understand Britain's history and of empire, and how it relates to migration, and I diverse the society, today I suppose the question for both of you, from your considerable experience. Is is the public up for being told the history you are suggesting that people should be told or or is the feeling that there's a sort of palatable version of the history that people want to buy in because it sort of reflects well on everybody. But the more difficult issues will get lost.

Speaker 3

And in and already invested in this conversation, then, sadly, our political leaders are. This weekend, uh in the Guardian there was, uh, an article from the director of English Heritage, I think. Championing the importance of having more nuanced, complex conversations about Britains. History in relation to empire and colonialism and its legacy. This is one of the leaders of one of our key National Health organisations. Being willing to confront this history head on. These are the voices that we should be listening to. The 65% of the public who are willing to have their children taught is what we should be. Using as our guide for how we ongoingly shape now for education around this complex conversation on super diversity. And it of course does go way back beyond Windrush. Is is ongoing education to me as a leader of this organisation? You know, that's my my role is really about managing an institution. I'm not the leading historian in my organisation, so it's a profound pleasure and benefit to be on going only inspired and informed about the. The nuances of our of British history that go back way. Into the into the time of the Roman Empire and even beyond. And how there's been the African presence involved in the shaping and forming of of of Britain for centuries. Why is does it sometimes come? Across as a. Radical thing to say in in thinking about Windrush 100, it opens the conversation to start integrating these considerations. And there's so much scholarship on it, it's not that there isn't any scholar. On these, these but but are they being endorsed? Are they being looked into the into the education system that's going to give the the widest impact that could really start to shift? Culture and a sense of connection between communities, a sense of respect, a sense of tolerance. That's the opportunity, I think for Windows 100 and we need to do that because our we're already, uh, super diverse. From what? Doctor Cox has said it's only going to increase, so I say yes.

Speaker 2

OK. When is it? Do you want to add? Anything to that or?

Speaker 4

Just that I agree with Lisa. I mean, I just think the politicians are so behind the general public gets astonishing. Even when you think of, you know, the issue of reparations and and the fact that the, you know, we now have a group called the heirs of slavery, you know, despite the fact and and and. People like Esther Stanford cosy have been campaigning for this for so. A lot of people are on board, but then there you have Richie soon like saying no, I'm not addressing slavery. And then you have, you know, Suella Braverman going on about multiculturalism, being a nightmare for Britain. But I do. There are I do have concerns at the back of my mind in the sense that we can't. Somebody is voting in far right politicians, and we've recently seen the impact in. Europe, you know, with the the new Dutch leader, but also we seen the events that have happened in Dublin whereby you know, Boris Johnson called them the race riots. Well, just clarified they were the white race riots. They weren't race riots, you know, and and he and his solution. Again, as though we were back in 1958 with, with, with the race rights, that was to say that the problem is the immigrant community. So we we have this real problem where politicians. Or keep trying to undermine what actually the main body of people in the UK want, which is for us to all just get along and to celebrate each other so.

Speaker 2

Let's let's suppose that that's a positive from. From both of you and I. Think that. Actually the Windrush events commemorations have largely been shaped from within the Windrush community or people working with them over the last 75 years they've not been put on the map by the government or by politicians, so there is scope. For choosing the stories and, well, not choosing but but telling the the truthful stories in the in. The years ahead. One of the things I wanted to ask though, coming on from that is. Is there a tension between the story symbolised by by Windrush, the broader experience of Black British history which comes from many more places than directly from the Caribbean, and this issue of super diversity and many, many mixed relationships, and that will continue to grow? So over the next 25 years. I'm not saying you have to choose one or the other, but how do you actually balance those different ways of telling the history? I mean, Don John has a question down here saying how do you factor those in mixed race communities who are not comfortable about being part of the black communities and have little interest in the black histories that many of us are advocating, he says, bearing in mind that the notion of blackness. Black identity is increasingly more contentious. So how do we sort of. Bring together or untangle those different strands of the stories. We'll want to tell over the next 25 years. 20 I'll come back to you first, then julisa. When he said, do you want to answer that?

Speaker 4

Ohh sorry sorry, I thought you I was thinking it the other way around. Ohh just yeah. In terms of well, that's why I'm saying. I think that we need to be preparing now for them. So even if you're thinking of people whose you know, you know in my family we have. My my nieces have a Guyanese. An African Guyanese uh grandmother. But complexion wise, you wouldn't have. You wouldn't know it, but I would expect that they should be being taught about the Windrush now and that you know, as part within our family. Obviously those things are being embedded anyway. They know her history. They they're I. I don't really. I'm not sure where you mentioned one of the somebody who submitted the question was saying that they felt disconnected from blackness. I can understand, you know, with identity politics.

Speaker 2

That if I could just explain it was a reference directly to. Who Don John was suggesting there are some people in mixed race communities who are not comfortable about seeing themselves as being part of the black community. And don't share the interests in black histories that others do, that that was the context.

Speaker 4

Right. OK, well, I guess. My way of understanding that is him saying as though black history was separate from British history. And that's what that sounds like that is. And so long as you, it's clear that black history is British history. There isn't a separation that needs. There isn't a separation. It's it's one and the same thing. And it is one of the same thing. That's the reality.

Speaker 2

Yeah, Lisa. Anything to add to that?

Speaker 3

Yes, I agree. I think that.

Speaker

And I'm just wondering.

Speaker 2

I'm just wondering what that cultural archives look like in a super diverse, very racially intermixed. Society and and the story you're then feeding into. I suppose that's a badly put question, but I'll let you speak.

Speaker 3

This looks like a super diverse.

Speaker 1

It looks like black cultural archives.

Speaker 3

Speaking to and engaging with and serving the Super diverse community. Our our the significance of our work. Will not change. It will involve. I mean those that sound completely so.

Speaker

We're here to.

Speaker 3

As an as a a monument to heritage, to black heritage. Now what is blackness? Question and Italy, but the way to deal with it is to ongoingly dedicate resources and attention to it and to. Called the trends and contradictions inherent within it, and I think the the reason why there is this person of its content and kind of a nervousness around its ongoing relevance, it's because it hasn't been supported as much as it could be, could be in academic realms.

Speaker 1

The funding for.

Speaker 3

Research ongoing scholarship development of theoretical framework to understand this idea of blackness has been woefully under resourced over the years. We have the obvious example of asking, as he, Professor Hakim Adi, one of our. Almost colours of the history of African and Caribbean peoples in the UK. Losing his role, his leadership role at his university and having to advocate for the importance of this area of. It's crucial that it's studied and paid attention to so that we can. Come to come to some of the challenges. And this question about the relevance of of this conversation to people from each heritage. Nobody is forcing anybody. Who adopts any definition of blackness? We're not telling you what your identity is, you know, and it's it's it's a. It's a very personal issue to every single heritage person, you know. And the thing, the beauty and the challenge of. These heritage it's everybody's experience is very unique, so fertility and and yes it does, it does some challenges but it's very much part of. What has made Britain what it is today? There are people walking around in. The UK. White, who have descendants going back through time who come from all over the. Place I'm not going to tell. You where from all over, but that that looks here. Part of the problem with the UK right now and I think only by having a focus on something like Windows 100. That's not stuff. Platform the issue and and the challenge I think and keep that. Conversation on going.

Speaker 4

Can can I add to that John? Actually I just wanted to say briefly, the Caribbean itself is inherently heterogeneous. So the idea of black just being about, you know, particular type of skin complexion doesn't doesn't hold.

Speaker 2

Thank you.

Speaker 4

True, and in fact, one of the things I think that we need to be thinking about going forward, I I notice there's a book that's been written recently by David Davidian and Maria del Pilar Paladin called the other Windrush, and it's pointing out that current stories kind of exclude the Indo Caribbean communities, people who are of Chinese heritage. So one of the things that I've been trying to do as part of the research I'm doing is to make sure that the people I've been interviewing who've been impacted by the Windrush scandal, who come from the Caribbean, are also people with Indo Caribbean backgrounds, Chinese Caribbean backgrounds to show cause. People don't seem to get this, the kind of. Yeah, just how inherently heterogeneous Caribbean society is? The other thing I think that's really important for people who are of mixed race is that mixed race people, I mean, I'm making a bit of a breeze, a sweeping statement, but I'd say in the UK as a whole, we have quite a a keen. In genealogy and so one of the really important things about creating these resources going forward is that people who do want to then explore their genealogy. Who may originally think they don't have connections to anything black? Well, may then discover they do and be enriched by discovering those resources.

Speaker 2

Can can I thank you both of you could. Can I ask just a question building on the educational side of things, these are this may have been the case that you were talking about, but Herman Irish says what suggestions to the panel have on ensuring black history courses given the recent demise of a degree course at Chichester University? I. Mean there? There's. You're both working in the field of education. There is this sense of a public which is increasingly interested in knowing more about these issues and prepared to learn things that might have been uncomfortable the generation before. But are we making the the, the progress that we should be doing in the formal educational system, in the school systems, in universities? And if not, what are the pressures? What are the things that are pushing back against that and stopping that happens?

Speaker 3

Well, the main issue that's pushing back on that happening is support from those people who dictate educational curriculum and policy around that in it being rolled out nationally. And we only have to look to Wales to see that it's totally possible for it to be included. There's clear examples of how to do that. So it's become politicised. That is one of the major challenges and when it's politicised, it also affects resources. Now there are a number of community based organisations I'd like to. The highlight black curriculum and other partner organisation who work basic his work descends directly from Black Saturday school movement, the Supplement supplementary school movement are going out at school levels and educating teachers providing resources. To bring this conversation into the classrooms. But to do that at scale, you need, I think, national governmental support and endorsement. But in the absence of that, I don't think all hope is lost because we can use the the public will to raise awareness of organisations like myself, national. Like that's in myself. That's in my role as as the Managing Director there, National Windrush Museum. There's Sean. The Shakespeare is is is advocate for development of museums X. Black curriculum is the whole body of organisations that that like like those. Who are advocating for? Yeah, the spreading of of different resources within the community to to help deal with, uh, the lack of support at. Governmental level, but I think it's about. And also using. Social media just using the the, the the resources that are are at our at our disposal in absence of in order to build up the campaign for for policy change, we just have to be pragmatic about it, I.

Speaker 2

But one of the aims going as we work between now and Windrush 100 could obviously be to change the minds of those who currently control the gates to the curriculum to speed all of that up.

Speaker 3

Yes indeed.

Speaker 2

I when I say can I just put a couple of rather specific questions to you, but you might want to build on this, which is about where we are with the Windrush compensation scheme, the numbers of people involved and whether you have any optimism that the new Home Secretary is going to make things move any faster than previously. But I might throw into that. I see there's a comment from. I think from. Herman, I'm not quite sure, but essentially saying this discussion about identity has been one of the obstacles in people coming forward and seeking compensation and so on. So just just can you bring the audience up to date quickly with where you think we are with the compensation scheme?

Speaker 4

I mean, that's why I'm I I I. Sort of was. We're inferring that we need to decide how we're defining Windrush because clearly in terms of the Windrush scandal. Part of the problem with the scandal itself is that because it's called Windrush, everybody thinks it's specifically African Caribbean, when clearly it's impacting people who are from Pakistan, India, Ghana and Nigeria, you name it any and a lot of people from across the kind of wider Commonwealth. So that's that's obviously been a key part of the problem. Having said that, the Caribbean communities and activists that have have kind of. Been advocates of of survivors have been very. It's so active in reaching out to people from all kinds of different communities. So even though there's been a kind of, in my view, dereliction of responsibility on the part of the government, yet again, the Caribbean Community have been really trailing the blaze in terms of of, of, of their activism and ensuring that more and more people are aware that they can apply. Under the scheme. Is the scheme working? I haven't looked at the latest figures on the scheme, but anybody who wants to check it can just have a look at the government website. The figures are up there. I think the latest figures go back to our spring of this year, so we haven't got the latest up-to-date information. UM, but there are key. Definitely some key problems that aren't being addressed that still mean it's gotta be taken out of the hands of the Home Office, because things, you know, some people had to. To, you know, access their private pensions in order to survive, for example. But then they're not compensating for that. Some people have actually lost their homes because they couldn't pay their mortgages anymore. They're not compensating for things like that. There's kind of really specific things that they're compensating for, a lot of things that you can't evidence if you become homeless. That's still an issue. Uh, yeah. Still a massive problem, but I don't want to give figures cause I haven't looked at them recently. Uh, all I can say is that I know that there's, you know, the majority of people still haven't been compensated. And I also one of the things that does disturb me is that they're kind of using. I don't know if this has been changed recently, but. They were using peoples backgrounds as a way of preventing them from getting access to compensation. So for example, if you had come here in, I don't know, say the 1960s and you had had a minor committed a minor offence and then, you know, lived your life as an exemplary. Citizen and then got caught up in the scandal. They can use the fact that you committed an offence to prevent you. From getting access to compensation, which doesn't make any sense because do you say that to British citizens who've you know, if they have a problem, they can still get their compensation, but also you have to bear in mind that the the community in those days were being over policed anyway over criminalised? Well, they still are. But, I mean, even more so if you think about the context of the 60s. And the 70s. So, but yeah, I'm I'm wondering. In fact, there might be more people online who would be able to give you the latest if if there's Roland Husslin or even, I thought even Herman Irish actually might know somebody's. Eve, my colleague, my fabulous colleague Eve, has just posted the latest data in the link there. So if anybody wants to have a look at that, they can.

Speaker 2

Good. Good. That's very helpful. Yes, there's quite a lot of useful resource in the chat. I I'm sure most people have already looked at it that. That's very good. I I gotta go now. I think to. What else is? I got I got. To ask a a question of both of you. Which is prompted in part by. A question. Anonymous attendee. But who says, noting Gus John's view, will the principal measure of the success of Windrush 100 be its ability to reveal and celebrate the true story of the presence of African descended people in the UK? Their contributions? The UK's relationship with the rest of the world, Britain's colonial history and the history of inward? Get with migration. That's a lot. Things, but I think we get the sense of. That is that how we would measure 100. But are there other? Things by which we would measure things at in, in, in in 2048 that we should also be seeking to to achieve going thinking back earlier to the reference I made. The professional footballer who's simply pointing out that huge progress has been made, but there are many areas in football where. Black people did not have the presence they have on the football pitch, so I'm just be interested in putting to both of you where what you think we should be aiming to have achieved in 25 years time. We need to can I come to you first and then Lisa?

Speaker 4

Yeah. I would just say I I sometimes the debates between Windrush or the longer history I find slightly. I want to say frustrating I it's not an either or. We need both. We need both as I mean you. You know, it's all part of history and obviously there are moments at school when you're learning about mediaeval history. And there are moments in school when you're learning about more recent history. And I just think, you know, it, all of it needs to be there. Windrush Day is just a specific day to focus on the more recent populations and the impact they have had, but that is in no way intended by any shape or form to obscure. We've got 360, four other days of the year where we could talk about anything else and frankly. It's impossible actually to talk about the Windrush generation without recognising the bit before because they were involved in the war. I mean they were. They were here before 1948. Most of the people who came on board that ship had been, you know, ex Rs members. So it, you know, Windrush automatically signposts. An earlier history and so I just think so long as we make sure that that is always the case that Windrush is, is is sign posting that that earlier history that it that it shouldn't be, yeah, problematic. I don't think I ask. Question please.

Speaker 3

I I highly agree with that. Implicit in the story of Greengrass is the. Story of empire and colonialism it is. Part and parcel of the same narrative, and I would hope by Windrush 100 this would not even be a.

Speaker 1

Debate anymore.

Speaker 3

Because the number of books that get published, the number of public conversations that I had, the changing, the changes in educational curriculum. The people who are represented within education leadership. Hopefully we'll have transformed and I think it would be a failure if we're having this kind of conversation 25 years from now, I'd be. So I would be so disappointed if it just becomes a return to, I would be surprised. Part of a a wider narrative of of our, of our nation's history. There shouldn't be any surprise to.

Speaker 1

Anybody 25 years.

Speaker 3

Now, and if we're having the same more conversation, fighting about having a monument or including into into. Educational curriculum. I would be hugely disappointed and I'd be 1 cranky 60 plus year old person. Talking about how I'm. Having this same conversation, I was here.

Speaker 4

Look out.

Speaker 2

Good. I think that's a very good and very optimistic note. Uh, we can probably draw the discussion together. I think I've managed maybe one or two quite technical questions that I've not managed to ask, but I hope I've got most of the people into the discussion. I think that's been a a fascinating webinar. What what I think is very interesting. There is firstly a real sense of optimism about what we can achieve and the tools that are are are, are at our disposal against the background of a still rapidly changing society in which the meanings of these stories will continue to develop. They're never going to be fixed and they're going to become more inclusive. Will they go back deeper into the past and help us shape the future? And I think we've sketched. Out a lot of the territory that we can cover over the next 25 next 25 years and it won't, as you say, be just about Windrush. Grateful to both of our speakers, Lisa, were you indicating you'd like to have a quick?

Speaker 3

Just one last comment to answer one of the comments I saw in the chat, which is to say and to underline the importance of this to be a fully national conversation course you take well of course has has been very London S England centric. One of. I think the successes of Windows 100 would have to be that is going up between brilliant activism, record keeping, solicit that's happening across the UK, not just focused on this. And of course. All the metropolitan areas are are really, really key to this conversation, so I just want to make sure I've got that in there. I'm sure Monica would agree.

Speaker 2

Thank you. Thank you. That's an important point. And and apologies to the person who raised it for not putting it into the discussion earlier. Thanks for picking that up. So yes, so looking forward as still rapidly changing society, we think our public that is up for this this discussion often more than the politicians are there's. These changes are largely going to be reflected in civil society and by activism and by initiatives of the sorts that you are doing. But there are also some key targets in the education system and in government itself to help bring this about, this is probably the first public discussion I think of Windrush 100, so I hope this will be an early resource. To all the people are going to be looking at Windrush 100 events in the future. Thanks again to everybody who's joined us. Thanks to both of our speakers, we will put the. Video and a transcript on various websites in a week or so. It's time when we've processed them and circulate them to all the people who registered for today. Thank you very much indeed. Thank you.

Speaker 4

Thank you, John. Good to see you, Lisa.

Speaker

And all.

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